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Willy Chavarria: It’s such an honour to meet you. I’m so happy with what you do, and I am so happy with the strength that you’ve manifested and been able to communicate to so many people. Your voice of empowerment, it’s just wonderful. So I thank you for that.

Mariann Budde: Thank you. I have been reading about you and your work, a bit about your history and how you’ve come to the place in your life and vocation. So likewise, thank you. Thank you for using a completely different platform and place in the world to honour and give space for such a broad range of human experience. I’m very interested to know more about how your path unfolded and how it was that you came to be the person that you are.

WC: Well, just recently I went back to my hometown where I grew up. I hadn’t been there in about 20 years. And we went to visit family, just to kind of ground ourselves — me and my team — working on where we come from and to reflect on how we got to where we are now.

It’s really kind of amazing. So many people I work with creatively as well as myself have been able to manifest a future within ourselves that has allowed us to have more of a voice in our creative means. We’re artists, so creating art is what keeps us going. And we all have compassion for humanity. Honestly, for me, a lot of prayer got me through.

MB: I was wondering what your spiritual background was, if you would be willing to share with us.

WC: I was raised very Roman Catholic and I actually went through — as we all do — a period of questioning. Questioning my value and whether or not I was going to be condemned to a life in flames.

At about 20, I went on this kind of mission where, long story short, I was a little bit homeless and ended up in Boston. I woke up one morning and said, ‘I want to go to church. I want to go here.’ I felt like gospel music. I was asking some people on the street if they knew of a church. And this woman — definitely a godsend — met me and said, ‘Oh, I know of a Catholic church. It’s not like a Black gospel church, but they have really good music.’ She took me on a train to that church.

MB: No, wow.

WC: It was a very, very liberal church. They even had modern dancing. As I was leaving, a man came up to me who had been a priest in the past but was now married with kids, and he invited me to stay with him and his family.

MB: Oh my goodness, just like that?

WC: Just like that. I think I looked a little interesting, maybe? I ended up staying with him and his family and helped them take care of the house. A very strict household. In the evenings, I would study scripture with him. I talked to him about my struggles at the time with homosexuality and my past that was really sordid.

He introduced me to a monk with whom I spent time while in Boston. I came to find out that the love that is communicated through scripture is really what it’s all about. For me, the details of the scriptures have been interpreted and reinterpreted to such a great extent, but I go straight to the source through feeling and through heart, and really look beyond the word-for-word in the scripture.

MB: It’s a very sacred and honoured tradition to read scripture, right? Going to the heart of the words, letting the mystical power speak. That’s amazing.

WC: I can’t believe I had that experience. It was so valuable. And that’s why I really believe in spiritual guides, guardian angels and prayer. I hold that process very dear to myself now.

But I have to thank you for the sermon you gave for the inauguration.

MB: Thank you.

WC: The grace, the courage, the steadfastness, the elegance and the eloquence — the world was just in awe. You took the world’s breath away. It was so beautiful. I thank you for that. I’m sure you’ve been told, but the impact that had on so many of us; so many people who have seen such conflict and animosity were able to see such a graceful delivery that came simply from a place of kindness.

MB: I want to thank you for including an excerpt in your show and in a cathedral that is part of our church. I know that cathedral, and I couldn’t believe it. To see all of those beautiful models, and you walking with such dignity and such grace. I would love to know how that came to be in your mind. It must’ve happened relatively quickly? Wasn’t it just a few days after?

WC: It was two days after. We had already planned to do the show in that church, and I was so happy to do it in an Episcopal church.

MB: You already knew you were doing the show in the church? That must have been planned for a long time, right?

WC: I really wanted to do the show in a church because I wanted to fill the church with people who are marginalised and under attack right now. I thought putting them in the church and giving them this beautiful space, showing that they’re welcomed was a lovely way to show the collection.

It was days before the show, and we were crazy. It was during that time that people started texting me: ‘Oh my gosh — did you see the Bishop’s speech? Did you see the inauguration?’ I hadn’t. Of course I hadn’t. So the night before the show, at about 11 pm, I pulled it up on my computer while we were working. Everyone in the studio gathered round. It was just everyone with their hands over their mouths — in awe, in tears — listening to your speech. That’s when I said, ‘Okay, we have to put this in the show. That’s all there is to it.’ It was just this amazing convergence. So beautiful. I’m really honoured that I can use my platform to touch people in a way they normally don’t get tapped into. It was a privilege to share that speech in such a beautiful and personal way with the audience.

MB: I’m so honoured that you did that, and I especially love the fact that you chose, beforehand, a church that is often not perceived as a place of welcome for so many people, though we try to be. Our church really tries to communicate that welcome, but there’s a lot of history, a lot of perception and obviously mixed messages that come from Christianity, as you well know. So for you to have done that, and then to have used that portion of my address — really, thank you. How was it experienced in the room? Were you pleased with the entire show? Was the show what you hoped it would be?

WC: Oh yes. I was over the moon. It was our first show in Paris, which was amazing. And, you know, anytime you do something that is slightly political, it’s a high risk. I was very pleased with the way people ingested your message and the message of the show. The beauty of it all. It was very powerful. And I thank you for that.

MB: Well, you’re very welcome. My colleague, the bishop in Paris, has oversight of all our churches in Europe; he didn’t know about the inauguration thing at all. He was there, and he wrote to me afterwards. He said to me: ‘Then I just heard your voice, we just heard it.’ He was like: ‘I can’t believe it. I heard you! That was the first I had heard it.’  As you can imagine, just like you were saying, it’s not uncommon for me to engage in speech or actions that are perceived as political. I don’t often have an opportunity like that — almost never, actually — to say something directly to a president. So, you can imagine the reaction was similar. There was a lot of energy in those first few days, but I have to say, hearing about your show was a highlight.

WC: That’s amazing. Yes, I met the bishop in Paris after the show, and I cannot believe that was the first time he heard your speech.

MB: He wrote to me right afterwards and said, ‘I’m in the cathedral at this amazing show, and I hear your voice.’ I didn’t have any understanding that that service and address would go any farther than the moment itself, in the cathedral. The perception now is that the service was a huge media event, but it actually was rather small. We live-streamed it in our cathedral, but all the major inauguration events — the speeches, the performances — happened the day before. This wasn’t exactly an afterthought, but it wasn’t big news anymore. All the attention came afterwards; I think it was social media, and people commenting and sharing. And then, of course, the president had not very kind things to say — which set off a whole other round of responses.

WC: Was there any further — I mean, you don’t have to answer this — but was there any further action taken by the president after?

MB: No. He has bigger fish to fry, right? He’s been pretty busy. But he simply said something after the service that wasn’t complimentary, rather muted. But that night, as he sometimes does, he went on social media and suggested that I ought to apologise to him and to the American people. As often happens, that communication sparked a big wave of responses. But then there was this other wave of such overwhelming support and gratitude. Often it came from people who would start by saying, ‘I’m not a religious person’ or ‘I left the church years ago’ or ‘I’m an atheist… but I want you to know…’ Those kinds of messages really meant a lot to me.

WC: Well, I also thought it was so important and poignant, because as you mentioned earlier in our conversation, there are so many mixed messages about Christianity right now — so many distortions of what Christianity is. I’m sure it’s been this way throughout history, of course, but it further confirms for me that my understanding of scripture is beyond the words that are written. I see how things are misinterpreted. What is considered ‘Christian nationalist’ or ‘Christian’ in this country is very easily misunderstood. So many people associate it with destruction, with war, with hate. I think it’s beautiful to remind people that that isn’t what it really is. At its core, it’s pure love. And that’s all.

MB: You’re right — what we’re seeing is nothing new. But it’s a particular form now, aligned with a lot of political power. So it’s a worry. All the more reason to quietly — at least I feel it’s not self-serving — fight back, right? Because then you just take on the tools of violence to counter what is violent. Instead, we try to model the clarity and conviction of Jesus himself and of the biblical prophets; they were clear but not aggressive, violent or hateful. That’s the challenge or call — for those of us trying to embody something of that message. And to honour the dignity of every human being, which also seems to be a big part of your work. To call forth the elements of your background and of people who wouldn’t necessarily associate their lives with high fashion and to say: ‘You belong here too. There’s no place where you don’t belong.’ Which is a lovely message.

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